Miss Attila,

I'd like to point out a couple things. For starters, I don't know your family, therefore I wasn't talking about them.

If you noticed the first sentence I wrote, in italics, before the Retrosexual content, you would have seen that I wrote, "FROM THE MAILBAG, I DON'T KNOW WHO WROTE IT BUT DAMNIT I LIKE IT."

I didn't write the piece in question, Graumagus did. At the time I posted it, I didn't have the author's information. You will find his original version here: http://www.frizzensparks.com/archives/000104.html

As for your husband, I'd like to say "thank you for your service to our country, you are appreciated by this American."

One last thing, I'm not a "bimbo" and I don't know this du Toit person you speak of.

Jennifer Martinez sends

To be fair, the opposite of a "metrosexual" is not the butt-scratching, belching, neanderthal.

Think Gary Cooper from High Noon.

And while they are shutting up about what makes a "Real Man", I'd appreciate it if they'd shut up about what makes a "Real Woman" too.

I think I'm gonna scratch my butt, then let out a big belch. :P

I dunno, Chris. A metrosexual is merely adhering to the standards of dress for his place and time. George Washington did this when he dressed up for the balls that were held in Revolutionary-era society--and no one had more physical courage than he did.

Urban men have always had a stricter dress code than rural men; this doesn't mean they don't have occasion to show true character. It merely comes out in different ways.

I love that Gary Cooper character, but I don't see a contradiction between, on the one hand, taking a little care with your personal appearance when the occasion demands and standing up for what is right when called upon to do that. Apples and oranges: different situations.

I have always had an odd time explaining what I think of that Kim du Toit essay because I agree with a good deal of it but not all of it. I've also had the experience of speaking to Kim du Toit and discovering that he's actually a soft-spoken, sweet guy, which suddenly makes you realize that sometimes when he writes and sounds angry he's not angry at all, he can say something that'll make you chuckle but when you just read it it sounds angry or mean.

If you want to get a better perspective on this, I strongly recommend reading Christina Hoff Sommers' THE WAR AGAINST BOYS, especially if you have any sons under the age of 25. Growing up a boy in the '80s, I definitely felt many of the forces of disapproval and nastiness that essays like this address; we're made to feel "immature" for our normal sexual urges, for not having the same interests or the same attitudes that are standard for girls, and worse, we're not supposed to notice sex differences that we see around us every single day, even made to feel like there's something wrong with us if we just see what we see. Or God Forbid act on it.

Because being a metrosexual is something quite a bit beyond "dressing for your times and place"--to bring it back to George---it'd be akin to being a "dandy"

One can be fashionable and still be masculine--but the whole "metro" thing strikes me as being far more concerned with the fashionable to the point of calling into question the mascluinity.

Had George spent hours upon hours powdering his wig until it was "just right"--then yeah, it wouldn't have been unreasonable to wonder a lil bit about his military prowess.

So that's my stance: a metrosexual is your modern day dandy.

Chris, I think we're arguing over precise matters of degree. Suffice it to say that I think the "cave man" lobby is suggesting that a man shouldn't be interested in his appearance at all, which is not very fun for heterosexual women, and not very healthy for him.

FWIW I'll concede that there's a level of obsession over appearance that comes off as "foppish" (or "dandy-like") to me. Of course, there is the same thing with women--most of us like to look good, but some women (who aren't models) make it into a job.

Dean, we're in the process of adopting, and we'll probably stop at one child. So it could go either way (unless we manage boy-girl twins). But I'm very much in favor of boys, and I want them to be free to be the high-energy kids they are. I don't approve of drugging kids, or anything like that. And I know male and female brains work a little differently, though it makes me crazy when people use this to suggest that women are intellectually inferior.

So we're in agreement that

(1) men should bathe fairly regularly
(2) farting/belching should be kept to a minimum unless in a competitive setting or near an open flame (applies to both men and women)
(3) men should not take longer than women to get ready to go out
(4) "if it has a hole in it--throw it out"

1) yes;
2) yes, please--I don't want to see it, hear it or smell it;
3) I would find this off-putting, but if his woman is okay with it, good for them;
4) yes, unless dry cleaner (or tailor) thinks he can fix it.

Christopher, about your #4, "if it has a hole in it, throw it out", you meant except for underwear, right?

"real men" don't sit around thinking about what constitutes a real man, they just are.

Bill

Where can I follow up for more information

Um. About what? You might follow the links in the original post to see what it is we're talking about.

Are you a real person, or a 'bot?