In an ideal world, nobody would be mad.

You told your story, which is very powerful and is the best way to advocate for your beliefs. Personally, I was adopted but very well could very well have been aborted, yet I support abortion rights [without parental notification] and agree with you on most points; your post makes points that I had not even thought of yet.

Sorry that you had to deal with an abusive mom and go through an abortion without the support of your boyfriend at the time; it had to be hard.

What doesn't kill you . . . ;)

Attila Girl,

I don't know if you saw my response over at Jeff's that I see this all the time, where it is actually the boyfriends making the decision, not the woman. But no one wants to talk about that.

When I said birth horror stories I meant that I have yet to hear a girl who decided to have the baby say they regretted it and wished they had aborted it. Even the ones who gave up their babies for adoption.

I am always shocked when I read about people who were adopted and support abortion. It really boggles my mind. But that is another post.

I also felt urged to post on this at my blog but from a different perspective. You might want to check it out.

I am sorry for what you went through. I hope you have peace with it.

OhH , one more thing about parental notification. Perhaps I wasn't clear. The girl does not have to "prove" anything. She simply has to tell the judge what the case is and she can bypass the law.
Not that I agree with it, I don't. But if that makes you feel better. The girl will not be refused. It is simply a formality.
Pro-lifers agreed with the exception because we would rather have most parents informed even if that exception is only used as an excuse by some.

Here's one for both of you to ponder: the boyfriend I was with at the time, the one who insisted that I get the abortion . . . was an adoptee.

Crazy world, huh?

An adoptee? Fun. It may have been a personal issue with him feeling bad about being given up for adoption that led to his insistence that you have an abortion.

RWS, if you're interested, I will have that conversation with you about adoptees who support abortion rights over at your blog [or here, if Atilla would prefer].

The song Brick has been on my mind today. Good, sad song.

It's worth noting that Ben Stein became a pro-life activist after he and his wife adopted his son. The thought of this child perhaps being aborted under other circumstances so horrified him that he threw himself into pro-life work with all his might.

We have friends who became activists after they had their child. She had previously told me that she could never advise another woman as to which choice she should make. But havine a child of her own changed her mind.

So I've wondered whether adopting our own child will change our minds.

Oops. I mean, "my mind." (Husband is firmly pro-life.)

Some of my dearest friends are the adopted children of my mom's former obstetrician. He was involved in pro-life activities to convince mothers to adopt, and wound up adopting four children himself. One of whom he'd actually been responsible for saving in the first place. (The aforementioned rescuee is in Iraq right now with the Marines.) Had they been aborted, well, I just can't imagine never knowing them. They've all been great friends for about as long as I've been alive.

So yeah. I've always been pro-life, but the adoption angle just brought that possiblity to mind today. Never really given it that much thought to that particular "What if...?" before. Gets one to thinking.

Oh, and for what it's worth, your link is safe with me, Attila. I'm with Sparkle on the issue, but I admire your honesty.

Both of my Uncle's adopted kids have come from teenage mothers who had gone to Cahtolic Charites and/or their parents for help when they found out they were pregnant. But I would state that that option depends a lot on the resources avalible, especially in terms of support. But it gave my uncle and his wife what they always wanted but couldn't do on their own.

I have a random question, which I have no answer for, but maybe someone does. If there are complications during an abortion in which the parents are not notified cand the child reciieve the non-abortion medical treatment without parental consent? I only ask because when I worked at my local hospital in high school and we had som illegals come in with TB, they had us tested periodically for TB, but I had to get parental consent before the TB test could be administered. Throw that in with other experinces around school where nothing (even advil) could be administer without parental consent. So is there a line drawn by law on what non-abortion procedures can be performed without parental consent and what would the legal ramifications of perofrming such procedures with out parental conscent?

Hm. I'm sure that the way the laws are written, all associated medicines are included: the RH factor stuff (which I needed), the small tranquilizer, the local anesthesia (it's "twilight sleep" at Planned Parenthood, but I just had a normal local). I'd also bet that any emergency procedures that might be needed would also be covered.

I think part of what you're observing is a "cover your ass" culture at the hospital, and a CYA/"no tolerance for drugs, and anything is a drug" culture at the schools. In a life-and-death situation, I suspect things work differently. (There are laws, BTW, that protect "good Samaritans" from lawsuits, and it could even be that nurses could say they took some lifesaving measures on their own.)

We need some lawyers on this thread (and a doctor or nurse, if we can get 'em). Wonder what the Bear Flag Leaguers are doing? ;)

I like that tee shirt for babies that reads: "Now that I'm safe, I'm pro-choice"!

Now that I'm a parent, I'm pro-notification.

I can assure you Attila girl, being a parent changes the ENTIRE way you look at life.

Not that it makes a liberal a conservative, heaven knows we know that. But if you already leaning towards the conservative view, I have found having a child pushes you over into the right RIGHT!...;-)

Steven, come to my blog and read my post from yesterday. Then we talk..;-)

When my old job required CPR & First Aid certification, the rule of thumb was you always had to ask some one if they wanted help before you could give it, if they refused you couldn't. The Good Samaritan part applied to when the person passed out and you would assume they would want help, even if moments before they had turned it down.

As far as the other stuff I'm still at a loss for the procedures, well except at King/Drew where they would probably just taze them.

LMA & RWS....This online discussion ya'll are having has truly raised the bar for online discourse. both of you are impressively well thought out, intelligent, passionate-without playing the emotionsla card, respectful of each other-without personal attacks (so often resoted to), so much so that I will now step back in awe and eagerly await comments to come. Please continue. I salute you both.

Pirate: interesting. I've taken CPR and first aid several times, and we were never taught to ask. Of course, a few times that was in the context of VERT/CERT training (citizens responding to natural disasters), and the assumption was that a lot of people would be in shock, and no one would refuse treatment.

RWS: I know being a parent will change everything. Just be gentle when you throw this all back in my face.

OMG! I would never throw anything back in your face!!!! You will not believe how many times before I had kids, or when they were young that I would look at what another parent was doing and say "I would NEVER do that." and then I had to eat crow.

I learned a long time ago that with friends and family, unless they ask my opinion, I don't give it.

Kids just love to prove you wrong on any parenting plan you might have. Trust me on this one.

Weird, maybe it was because I did most of it through the scouts when I worked for them and they wanted to avoid child molesting stuff, then again they would then make you go get a second adult before approaching the kid. Yay for youth protecton!

Thanks for the link, Little Miss.

I appreciate the dialogue and that it got people thinking and talking.

Pirate: for what it's worth, I'm no longer alone with my doctor when I get a pelvic exam. During the time that I'm on my back with my feet in the stirrups, there's a female from his office present. After I sit up, she melts away.

I'm ambivalent: after all, I can only imagine what this does to my medical bills; he made need another staffer, just to make sure someone's available for this. OTOH, it doubtless makes things safer for a lot of women, if this becomes standard.

Of course, he isn't doing it out of the goodness of his heart: he's protecting himself legally.

Just curious - Why do you see a male gyno? Is he a really good fertility doc or something?

I haven't seen a male obgyn in many, many years. It's just not worth it to me, between that tension, the fact that even the best can never quite relate, and that in the waiting room at male docs, the excessive and highly allergenic perfume on the patients nearly does me in.

That last part is pathetic on too many levels.

I've gone the other way on male OB-GYNs. When I was young it had to be a female. Then a female was preferred. Now, I find that I don't care.

He's cordial and chats with me while he does a pap smear. He's fast, and the smears are 100% painless. He's nice. He delivers lots of babies, and doesn't seem to have any hangups about the female body. (Wouldn't it be great if we could assume that about a male OB-GYN?) He's the head of the obstetrics department at the local hospital, and comes across like he really knows his stuff, without it seeming egotistical. He's proactive, and if he has any concerns he'll do an ultrasound.

And the waiting room is large, so I never have to sit next to an over-perfumed person. I have been given to understand that some pregnant ladies develop a flirty relationship with their obstetrician, which sounds odd . . . but perhaps it's what you were observing.

Yeah, I wish we could make that assumption! But I started out believing doctors see bodies every day and don't ever have hangups - I was raised that way. My dad's an MD though he never really practiced. It was the "real world" that was a sickening wake-up call to me. I was not prepared for reality.

Being at the gyno is icky enough without those other complications. Needing a female witness in the room is enough for me to say, Lady docs only.

My new one's the best ever. Brilliant, kind, superb doc and surgeon, and very funny. The ladies always do the chatting and comfort talks, warm up that dilator and the stirrups (and/or put little socks on them), get the smear over first, and gently - "Torture part finished!" this one said cheerfully - and take seriously good care of me, fibroids, cysts, fibromyalgia, and all.

We have a large elderly and late middle- age population here. They seem to really pour on the scent. But the heavy perfume wearers are all ages. They almost never arrive smelling that way when I'm at a lady doc's waiting room. From years of waiting-room chats and observations, my impression is that they go to far greater lengths with the perfume, leg and pit shaving, lotioning, hair styling, makeup, dressing better, working hard to be giggly and appeasing, charming and Have a Personality, etc. when it's a male obgyn.

Like it's a date, ok? Or because their lives have taught them - right or wrong - that their natural bodies are disgusting to men in general, and must be seriously altered before being Presented for Your Approval.

I don't need to see that up close. It's pitiful. Upsetting. I also really hate putting on my terrorist-looking respirator in public, or leaving altogether because I'm in danger of needing the ER again. I've had to do that at male-only or mixed practices. I'd rather breathe than not. Breathing is good.

So is a sense of peacefulness and acceptance, of solidarity, in that waiting room. I really like that atmosphere. It's all smiley. Almost - gasp! - Fun. At the GYNO. !!!

And just in case anyone's wondering: this is not nearly as off-topic as it may seem at first glance.