For starters I wouldn't have pulled out to go chase after invisible WMDs in Iraq. That sent a clear message that, for all the tough talk about getting those responsible for 9/11 no matter what, Bush was full of hot air.

Let's see...strategies around Tora Bora. Keep the troops in tha area and work your intel sources. Use your air assets do night time IR scans and other nifty photography. Fact is, humans leave traces and if BL was in the area he'd be found (just like Saddam). Work the locals - they all have a price and catching BL would likely cost a lot less than the billions we're dumping in Iraq.

Yes, it wouldn't be necessarily easy or fast but pulling out is a guaranteed way to not Accomplish the Mission. Simply put, Bush screwed up BIG TIME.

I should have known you'd show up.

What do you know about the topography of Tora Bora?

Or the local politics.
Troops sitting around waiting sets up the same conditions that decimated the Soviet troops. If OBL wasn't killed at Tora Bora, it's because he was already in Iran or Pakistan at the time. Ever think the intel that he was there was designed to get us to play their game? If OBL is alive, let's see something in the tape to indicate the present. A "Gore will Soar in 2004" button doesn't cut it. Neither do voice tapes only. We all know that all his key men used to break each other up by doing dead-on impersonations of the big 'O'...

Leftist strategy for getting Osama at Tora Bora....
1) Bring in a proven hostage negotiator. Like Jesse Jackson.
2) Bring in someone that speaks to the Islam connection. Like Louis Farrakhan.
3) Negotiate. Offer to impeach Bush, Cheney and Rummy.
4) Apologize for past US mistakes. Install Al Gore as Pres. Make Tipper wear the hijab.
5) Bind US citizens to world court and turn Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld over to Euros for summary execution. Opposition to death penalty not-that-inflexible after all.
6) Give OBL immunity while he leads a commission to compile evidence that Bush destroyed the WTC. Case closed. OBL later joins Jesse and Louis for "The Healing Tour". Then gets his own talk show on CNN.

Hey, Mahatma: one of the ideas behind going into Iraq was to pressure our Saudi "friends" into giving anti-terrorist activities more than lip service.

We needed to put the fear of God into them--and into Iran.

So any calculations you do regarding the invasion of Iraq and its impact on the WOT should take into account the fact that a lot of the Middle Eastern states only started cracking down on AQ and similar groups when they saw we were serious about Iraq. That led to exclamations of "holy fucking shit," and a renewed commitment to do things the U.S. would like.

Also, see Libya's reaction.

P.S. When are you having your next party? When are we having lunch?

Surround the place and go in with guns a blazin.

There's no way to "surround" a network of caves, the entrances to many of which aren't even on ground level.

You can't drive vehicles into 'em, and the only way to approach, other than on foot or by mule, is in a copter--which can easily be shot down from the cave entrance.

And there were a lot of AQs in there. A lot.

If OBL was in Iran or Pakistan why didn't Bush what he did to Afghanistan? Present an ultimatum to either give up OBL or face invasion? THIS IS WHAT HE KEPT CROWING ABOUT!!! He kept saying he'd get those responsible for 9/11 and he still hasn't completed the mission! He could have used India as a backdoor threat against Pakistan or Iraq against Iran. Either way he could have continued his pursuit against OBL.

Who cares what the terrian around Tora Bora is like. For $300 billion (cost of stupid Iraq war) we could've had around the clock flyovers, freaking bribes of the locals and politicians, better equipped soldiers rotating through, and so on.

You want to fear into someone? Let them know that if they hurt you, you WILL pursue to the fucking ends of the Earth and blow their balls out their ears. So far, Bush has blown hot air out his mouth. He hasn't put any fear to anyone in the Mid-East as shown by the ranting of Iran's President, that OBL is still laive somewhere, that al Qaeda is quite lively, that Hussein is even still alive. Face it, Bush is a joke outside of the U.S. and a sad sack within. Pity the U.S. for having him as our leader.

Network of caves? Drop bombs on the openings (you know, guided missiles sort of things). Enough bombs and there's no openings even if they aren't on the ground level. If the suffocation doesn't do the trick then the panic might. It's hard to keep morale in the dark.

Convince me that for $300 BILION we couldn't find this turkey.

Plain and simple, with 9/11 the focus was on OBL and should have remained on OBL. Bush stupidly pulled out of the chase, stupidly tried to blame 9/11 on Hussein, stupidly tried to tie al Qaeda to Hussein as well and so on. If the intention to invade Iraq was something else he should have said so instead of using half-truths and spun shit.

P.S. No parties planned anytime soon, other than kids birthdays.

Work is absolutely chaotic but lunch out nearly any day would be a treat (double entendre intended). Give a call...

This isn't chess, Doll: it's about more than one man. In a black-and-white world, you just need to capture the King. In the real world, things are subtle and complex.

What if we had said, during WWII, that our strategy was to let the Soviets bleed Germany white, and then go in and finish the Axis off? How would that have gone over? I'm trying to imagine the President of the United States saying, "we're going to invade Iraq so the Saudis don't take us for granted any more, and so we have a stable platform--ideally situated on the borders of both S.A. and Iran--to project power in the area."

Let's say lunch in two weeks. No politics--not because I don't want to discuss it with you, but because it'll cut into time we could be spending on who's sleeping with whom, whose finances are stronger than whose, why the wrong people did/didn't end up together post-high school, whom we know that is the most irritating, and why if we merged our personalities we'd be The Finest Proofreader Who Ever Lived, and make even less money than we do now.

Oh, and--how immature people are who still smoke pot, and where/how we might be able to score some.

BTW: if the openings to the caves are in country A (where we are officially at war, and legitimately dropping bombs) and other openings are in country B (a sovereign nation, whose reluctant cooperation we are securing with great difficulty) and we drop bombs on the openings of the caves that are in country A, isn't it likely that the AQ guys will simply proceed to go into country B--where they were headed anyway?

Hey! Just one cotton-pickin' minute!

I have a memory of spending a good deal of time in 2004 countering the official position of the Left that George Bush had OBL hidden in his basement and was going to trot him out before election day. What the heck are we arguing with success for????? Tora Bora WAS a HUGE success, the Democrats told me so!

It's funny that you say "In a black-and-white world, you just need to capture the King. In the real world, things are subtle and complex." becasue Bush is th eultimate Black-and-white leader. "You're either with him or for the terrorists" - something he's said directly and intimated repeatedly.

But you can't capture OBL if all your assets are in freaking Iraq. HE DIDN'T FINISH THE JOB!!!! Even the Taliban are making a comeback.

And changing the topic to WWII doesn't prove anything.

Let's repeat this again: OBL was behind 9/11. Bush stated he would get him. Bush didn't.

That's a failure.

Iraq is a completely different topic.

Lunch sounds good but the topics of conversation sound like the same topics we've been having for the past...oh...30 years.

We need more cannon fodder for the gossip mill.

Then have a freaking affair, and we'll have something new to natter on about.

Actually, I might have one small news item, but it's not something I should be telling you . . .

A few inconvenient little factoids for you:

-Tora Bora preceeded our invasion of Iraq;

-People other than UBL were involved in 9/11; as a matter of fact, AQ has a very de-centralized command structure and is designed to be able to carry on when leaders are taken out (though we've destabilized it tremendously);

-Your boy Clinton passed up multiple chances to get UBL clean, and didn't go for it, though he was known to be a terrorist murderer of Americans.

Also, Bush warning nations that they had to play anti-terrorist ball with us ("with us or against us") has nothing whatever to do with how one would rate UBL on the substance-symbol scale as a target--though no one, of course, is suggesting he isn't a high-value one.

It's just that he ain't the only one out there.

As a matter of fact, having UBL in limbo may be the best solution--nothing for the jihadis to rally around, but unable to effectively lead. It's pretty cool this way.

Yes, other people than UBL/OBL were involved in 9/11 but Hussein wasn't one of them. To quit the chase after a known terrorist like OBL to fulfill one's personal agendas (and then manipulate or ignore facts to justify one's actions) is reprehensible. OK, Clinton coulda, shoulda gotten OBL but he never said he would. Bush did and hasn't. He bailed on the job.

Bush is telling more than nations to be "with us or against us". He's telling that to Americans as well to fend off any criticisms of his actions. He wants to unite the nation under his "iron" thumb but we're not playing it.

Let me guess. You probably support the recent Supreme Court judgement giving the police the right to enter without warning as long as they have a search warrant...

(And who says we won against the USSR? We're simply becoming them.)

"Then have a freaking affair, and we'll have something new to natter on about."

*IF* I did that I'd be dead and whomever I had an affair with would be dead. Yes, Die UberFrau has that effect on me and others. C'mon, you've seen her mad, seen the lightning erupt from her eyes.

"Actually, I might have one small news item, but it's not something I should be telling you . . ."

Hey. Unlike some of our mutual friends I can keep a secret. I haven't spilled your middle name, have I? HAVE I? Of course, if your readers gave a minor tithing, I could be persuaded...

Do you have a single citation of Bush telling American citizens that they "are with or against" the Administration? I'd be interested in seeing such a thing.

And so far it sounds like your answer on Tora Bora is to somehow use planes, and to spend more money on unspecified technologies that would have allowed us to access the cave complex better.

And not to go into Iraq the following year.

My readers can't outbid me: just tell me their offer, and I'll top it. ;)