hi attagirl,

i hope you don't mind my taking liberties with your nom-de-plume; "little miss" risks being seen as condescending (worse, sexually condescending), and "attila girl" is just too formal.

did you know that attila is recorded as having died on what was presumably one of his several wedding nights? various conservative sources have it that he died of a nose-bleed and that his new bride was found in the morning cowering in a corner of the bed-chamber.

an intriguing account, albeit relatively modern, has it that attila forced marrage on a young woman named ildico after having killed her father. this account has ildico taking revenge on attila who, presumably, was not too sober after the wedding festivities.

all accounts agree that attila died on his wedding night. assertions and circumstances suggest that he died of a knife wound.

attila was buried on a plain. his horde is said to have marched over his grave to conceal it. to this day we do not know where it is.

returning to the moment:

my first impression of tammy bruce is that she has a good head on her shoulders.

my second impression is that those who she writes for are well served.

i am constantly impressed with the fact that these are amazing times.

this from someone who identifies himself as being so far left he's right.

best regards,

alan m.
ny ny

Alan M., it would be a capital idea to hit that "PayPal Donate" button (to the left, above) during LMA's fund drive.

All accounts? Only Marcellinus Comes (Count Marcellinus) relates that tale, sixty years after the fact. Priscus of Panium has him dying of natural causes. Emperor Marcian was not on the grassy knoll that, or any other day.

I'll answer to AttaGirl. In fact, I once attended a convention using the "company name" "Attila Girl Enterprises," which someone mistook for "Atta Girl." That works, too.

Thanks for the research on my namesake, boys.

hello darrell,

i am not a scholar of late western roman times, but i am generally interested. i can find no reference that has priscus saying attila did not die on his wedding night.

can you point me to a source for that?

i should have prefixed my assertion of "all sources" with 'as far as i know', but i was relying on my memory of a brief look into the matter 6 or more years ago and that memory had it 'all sources'. now, looking further, i see the nibelungenlied and the eddas have something to say about how attila died. although centuries within an oral tradition, and of uncertain evolution into writing, i think i clearly have it the nibelungenlied and and the norse eddas all agree that attila was killed by his wife to avenge a death.

the interesting thing to me about those traditions is that they don't rely on the written word of one man, or as in this case, the differing words of two men, in the matter.

the broad dissemination of that death into the hands of at least several masters of oral traditions, entered into those traditions free of the biases of the evolving empire as expressed by two men.

interesting stuff.

elsewhere, i'm sorry... aside from being something of a lower-case sort, i have to ask, what is the fund-drive about?

hello attagirl! :)

you like the name attagirl! good. so do i. i like serviceable ambiguity.

elsewhere i must say that i know i have a grin on. while she may well have had a man's measure, i don't believe a girl of those times, however strong, would have called (at least one) man a boy without certain protection accompanying the wish to do so.

one could look at you, in what one might think to be a barbarian gentlemanly sort of way, and ask himself 'what is this girl in for?'

what do you think she, without having heard a sound yet aware that that question had been asked, would answer to herself?

:)

best regards to you both,

alan m.
ny ny

I'm not disputing the "dying on his wedding night" part. It's the "...assertions and circumstances suggest that he died of a knife wound" part. And the "after having killed her father" part. The only contemporaneous words associated with Ildico are "that she was reknowned for her beauty." Any additional words would then be motivated to provide, say, a rationale for murder(revenge), rather than a death from natural causes.

In the only contemporaneous description, Attila was found dead with blood around his mouth and nose with no visible wounds("unwounded"). How can we not trust those witnesses who then " as is the custom of that race, they cut off part of their hair and disfigured their faces horribly with deep wounds so that the distinguished warrior might be bewailed, not with feminine lamentations and tears, but with manly blood. "?

"I am always surprised that historians still use the old saw about Attila the Hun dying of a nosebleed. The probability of this being true is extemely unlikely. The MUCH more likely scenario is: 'esophageal varices'. It seems most historians haven't bothered to consult an ER doc or a pathologist.

Attila's death is a CLASSIC scenario for this event: a night of heavy drinking for a chronic heavy drinker. Chronic alcoholism leads to acid reflux disease which culminates eventually in esophageal varices rupturing. This is VERY common, in fact the public doesn't realize it, but this is the number one cause of death for chronic drinkers, NOT liver disease, which is number two.

Essentially we are talking about a hemmorrhoid, only at the bottom of the esophagus instead of the rectum. When they rupture the victim drowns in his own blood, coughing and spitting up blood from mouth and nose. They usually die before getting a transfusion.

I think it is safe to say that Attila was a heavy, chronic drinker; most of the military men (and a helluva lot of other people) were in ancient days. Blood transfusions, of course, were not available."

Tom Utterback,
http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/attilathehun/a/AttilaHemorrhoi.htm

In the "Niebelungenlied"(a Middle High German epic poem written about 1200) Ildico became Kiemhilde and Attila Etzel. One would expect a certain creative license to be taken with the facts in such a poem, true? Not to mention the 747 years. And the events in another famous person's life. One where we would add "PBUH" after every mention.

Since the LMA Blog counts for graduate credit at so many universities, I would suggest adding:

Thompson, E.A., "A History of Attila and the Huns." Greenwood Press; Westport, CT; 1948

Baldwin, B.,"Priscus of Panium,"Byzantion 50(1980)

Muller, C.,"Fragmenta Historicorum Graecorum, Vol. 4(Paris, 1851)

to your reading list.

Broom Hilda was once married to Attila the Hun , I might add. See your local "daily dead tree" media offering.

I'm not disputing the "dying on his wedding night" part.

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then you missed the period between "... wedding night." and "assertions
and circumstances...".

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It's the "...assertions and circumstances suggest that he died of a
knife wound" part. And the "after having killed her father" part. The
only contemporaneous words associated with Ildico are "that she was
reknowned for her beauty." Any additional words would then be motivated
to provide, say, a rationale for murder(revenge), rather than a death
from natural causes.

****************************************************

unless i am mistaken then, your position is that there is no reason to
believe ildico caused attila's death, and that attila probably died of
hemorrhage.

i think you are right to dismiss a nose-bleed as the cause of attila's
death, and your suggestion of hemorrhage can conceivably account for the
appearance of a nose-bleed.

with the data available and the time available to piece it together, i
cannot say that i am certain that you are wrong, but i believe that you
are wrong.

2,633,124 people were said to be addicted to alcohol in england in 2003.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2817781.stm

something less than 1,718 persons died of cirrhosis and fibrosis in england
2005.

http://www.britishlivertrust dot org dot uk/home/media-centre/facts-about-liver-disease.aspx

deaths attributable to esophageal varices must be fewer in number than
that due to people of wales being included in the population, as

****************************************************

Not everyone with cirrhosis has varices
and not everyone with varices will bleed.

http://www.britishlivertrust dot org dot uk/content/search.aspx?pid=280&query=esophageal+varices

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and esophagel varices not caused by cirrhosis are rare:

****************************************************

The most common cause of esophageal varices is scarring
of the liver. The scarring may be caused by liver disease,
such as cirrhosis. The scarring prevents the normal flow
of blood from the intestines back through the liver. The
blood bypasses the liver, increasing the blood flow into
the veins of the esophagus. As this condition worsens, the
body creates new veins, but these new veins cannot prevent
abnormally high pressures and swelling of the veins. At any
time the veins can break open and cause severe bleeding.

Rarely, esophageal varices are caused by other medical problems.

http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/aha/aha_esophvar_crs.htm

****************************************************

the number of deaths due to fibrosis and cirrhosis of the liver
in 2005 was 1,718 in a population of 2.6 million or about 1 out
of every 1,513 alcoholics.

unless i've missed something significant, and i don't believe i
have, the odds of 1,513 to 1 against are better than the odds
against attila having died of an esophagel varices hemorrhage.

crediting priscus, the case for variceal hemorage gets worse -
attila practiced personal restraint (an interesting fact that
has one looking again at his reputation):

****************************************************

A luxurious meal, served on silver plate, had been made
ready for us and the barbarian guests, but Attila ate
nothing but meat on a wooden trencher. In everything else,
too, he showed himself temperate - his cup was of wood,
while to the guests were given goblets of gold and silver.
His dress, too, was quite simple, affecting only to be clean

http://www.fordham dot edu/halsall/source/attila1.html

****************************************************

no doubt attila drank at his wedding, but the report of his
personal temperance is at odds with excesses leading to
esophageal varices.

the cause of attila's death is uncertain. contrasting credibility,
priscus has no match, and he is said to have said:

****************************************************

When [attila] had done all these things through the
kindness of fortune, neither by an enemy's wound nor
a friend's treachery but with his nation secure, amid
his pleasures, and in happiness and without sense of
pain he fell. Who then would consider this a death
which no one thinks should be avenged?"

http://www.istrianet.org/istria/history/0000-0999AD/huns-goths/attila-death.htm

****************************************************

this from a man who is also said to have left us with his fragment 8.

in the presence of even an only somewhat decent gathering of known
detail relating to attila's death, what i understand to be priscus'
last sentence, "Who then would consider this a death which no one
thinks should be avenged?" can give one a deep, deep pause for thought,
and asks answer beyond what i think can reasonably be brought here.

regards,

So, alan, are you sayng that you are NOT going to hit LMA's tip button?

Where else can you find this much mental stimulation without a 'shroom involved?

Limbo release!