Frankly, I wouldn't arm wrestle Sarah Jessica Parker. I'm afraid she'd kick my ass. I'd have to resort to other methods to win.

Now, the divine Ms. Renee Z looks pretty good. There's a difference between being fit and being fit to join the UCF cage matches.

Which set of commenters is more hostile to women?—Rusty's, or Ace's?

I don't know that it's a question of hostility, Attila, though there have been times I've seen open hostility to women at Ace's. I don't hang around Rusty's so I can't comment.

I think it's more a question of not thinking/being wrapped up in themselves. Lots of people are like that - not just men. They only see things from their own point of view.

There's no particular reason for them to change, either. There's really no penalty for being that way, except the obvious problem of thinking all women are shallow and vain b/c no intelligent women will have anything to do with a man who talks and acts that way. It's a self-reinforcing philosophy, with the bitter satisfaction that you can tell yourself, "See? I was right all along".

I think it's a tossup between the two, IMHO. The "bangable" stuff just gets tiring...it's like listening to a bunch of pimply 14 year old boys who's closest brush with female breasts is seeing their mom's bra in the dryer holding forth as sage judges of who should be the next Victoria's Secret top model.

I stg I'm forcing myself to not click the links, because I know my head's gonna essplode.

In general, I despise the comments at Rusty's, which are a disgrace to a really good site. I adore Rusty, Vinnie, and the others (except Ragnar, who's a stupid f'ing tool, and I don't care if he sees this because I'm sure he's in the anti-female chorus at the link. He knows I'm no fan of his). The commenters at Jawa are almost as bad as the ones at Hot Air, though, and often worse. Not just on stuff like this--on everything. Thankfully, they got rid of one who was especially vile, although he's apparently been a tough cockroach to kill. (I only know this from Vinnie--I don't bother going to see for myself.)

I guess that's the drawback to having a ton of traffic--you get all the nutters along with the normal people. Of course, not ALL big blogs have that problem, so...

This coming from someone who has a cartoonish picture to represent themselves?

To quote GOB Bluth: COME ON!

Too fat, too thin. Too out-of-shape. Too fat. Too buff... You're hearing from different men with different likes and dislikes--there's no contradiction here. Whatever your condition there's probably someone who is going to find you hawt.

I prefer a bit of cush (as my dearly beloved happens to have) and never did care for the bone-thin look. The thing is, these in question are not making the best of it. SJP is scary, and Madonna twice so. You want someone aging gracefully? I give you Sharon Stone. *There* is a woman who is making the best of getting older.

And yes, at 44 I have a belly that has not quite (yet) overshadowed my shoulders, and my 'member' doesn't always cooperate. Such is life. If I wanted to be more attractive, I know what I'd need to do. As it happens, there's only one person who needs to find me attractive, and she has no complaints.

You're not going to change men, especially not this way.

We're just supposed to **shut up** and not discuss likes and dislikes, preferences and turn-offs because it makes some of you ladies feel insecure?

Sure.

DC

I don't feel insecure, just annoyed. And it hasn't anything to do with discussion, but everything to do with judging a woman's worth on whether or not a man would "do her".

I'm as apt as anyone else to look at extremes and make a call that maybe the person has issues ... but I don't judge their basic human worth based on looks.

DC, I usually have a really high tolerance for that sort of thing. And I really get the "men like different things" issue. But the posts were just mean, and the comments were even meaner.

Don't get me wrong: I'm perfectly happy with the way I'm aging. But aging is inevitable, and I can definitely see getting into weight-bearing exercise as a hedge against bone loss/osteoporosis.

uh oh... AG, I may have posted twice...and they've both disappeared.

If they both reappear, please edit as needed.

:-)

It's all just an excuse to post pictures. Men like pictures. Pictures get blog hits. And human tendencies to critique everything. especially those we will never have. It makes it about us after all. Post a pic of a Bugatti Veyron, a car that sells for $1,700,000, and you'll get a bunch of comments from men picking apart the grille, engine, and everything including the knob on the shifter. But I never suspect that any one of the critics wouldn't be happy to see one in their driveway. I know I just committed a mortal sin with the women and cars analogy: I am so so sorry.

And women don't do this? I missed that, too. And I am as equally sorry for that as well.

It's the Pilates, btw. Resistance training with high repetitions, focused in key areas. Despite what experts say, you can spot reduce fat in key areas, like around muscles. And from personal experience, it all goes away if you don't keep it up-no double entendre present or implied.

And yes, I would like everyone of them in my driveway. Even if I have to pave the whole damned block.

Well, just to prove to you that we men can take it as well as dish it out, I present to you, from The Jawa Report:

YUMMY!

(At least, some of the female readers think so.)

I am impressed by his definition myself, even if the yummy moniker doesn't really work for me.

I'm not sure that weight-bearing exercise as a hedge against bone loss/osteoporosis is what we're seeing there. That look takes a whole lot more effort than would be justified on those grounds alone.

Let's not forget that these two are members of the celebrity class, the Beautiful People, the Role Models For Us All. And as such, they are quite truly Fair Game For Critique. Thus I think the call for Rusty and Ace and their co-bloggers and commenters to post their own pics prior to commenting is rather moot.

Men and women both look to celebrities to choose their own style and appearance. What I am hearing is people with a strong opinion standing up and saying, "ladies, don't DO this to yourselves!!!11elevensies!11!!"

And re human worth, again these are celebrities under discussion. Celebrities may be human beings behind their persona, but that persona is by nature two-dimensional. If someone in your personal life is objectfying you solely on looks, well you may have a case to take against them.

...
ok, third try. Someone needs to inform Fluffy that I've got a mag of 7.62x39 with his name on it and a gaggle of cats who are eager for some freshly ground Spamhound.

"pimply 14 year old boys who's closest brush with female breasts is seeing their mom's bra in the dryer holding forth as sage judges of who should be the next Victoria's Secret top model."

That would be me! Have you been talking to my wife?

Well, I am prime beef. Just ask Merri.

Well, I am prime beef.

Sooooooo.... Vinnie. Would this mean you are volunteering to be next week's Grrrl Pin-up?

/running away before Merri can kill me

And yes, that was just a joke :p

I would be honored to be next week's Grrrl Pin-up.

I need to get my ass bleached first.

We all are books being judged by our covers every day. Though some of us are left on the shelf.

Where we pick up the fine scent of vanilla pipe tobacco. Or Latakia, Macedonia bright and brown cavendish on top of Virginia leaf.

Nice callback to another thread!

Hey, Attilla! Let me read up on what's going on at Ace and Rusty's beer shacks, and I'll see what I can come up with. ;)

I need to get my ass bleached first.

OMG. Vinnie, you are a dead man :p

I am dying.

Funny, Cass. I thought Vinnie was serious.

Aw, shit. I knew this was gonna happen: now I'm the goddamned poster child for bitter, repressed women. A culture wariorette--but on the opposite side from where I belong.

Ah, well. Happy to be a straw girl, for those who need it.

Hey! You actually do have pix of some of us. Which you never sent copies of... Grumble grumble.

Okey-doke, S. Consider my ass kicked on that one. I'll send 'em along as soon as I recover the contents of my hard drive on the old machine. So give me another few days, if they can't copy it over today.

Not as far as I'm concerned, LMA. I am trying to sort out my thoughts on this and will be linking to your post.

Okay. The follow-up is here, of course, and props go out to Ace for attempting to engage in some rational exchange of ideas on the subject—and for doing so on Rusty's site, which kept the entire feud from turning into any more of a carnival than it already was.

It's red, but it's not a link. Nice to know you still care with everything going on and all.

Hm. I've fixed it, and rebuilt the site twice, but the fix won't "take." (At least rebuilding the site from my husband's machine doesn't crash the computer, like it did with my old laptop.)

The first link is to the take-off on me over at Rusty's place--and I think that one works. That contains the thread that Ace participated in.

The second one was just a courtesy link to Ace's site on general principle.

The pink type is not a link--it's just a bug

I'm the goddamned poster child for bitter, repressed women.

Nah, can't be true. You're not related to St. Amanda, are you? I thought she was said poster child?

"Celebrities may be human beings behind their persona, but that persona is by nature two-dimensional. "

Especially when some celerbrities go to great lenghts to sell themselves on the basis of their sex appeal. Why else pose semi-nude for the world? Aren't they inviting evaluations?

If you don't want to be viewed as boobs walking on legs, then why publish detailed photos of them?

That being said--

We aren't going to change male biology, but your point about rational behavior in public is true. We expect them to conduct their locker room discussions in private locations, not in the middle of a restaurant. The fact that they don't do so is evidence that they recognize none of us would date them afterwards.

Ignoring that rule online is based on their recognition that none of the women they might wish to attract know their identity. So- no negative fallout from saying what is on their minds. .

It also depends upon the forum in question. Both Ace and Rusty run sites that tend in the direction of the bawdy from time to time anyway. They are more bar-like than restaurantish. No one should be too shocked to hear a group of men discussing the physical attributes of celebrities or the latest political news over a pitcher of Coors in their favorite local pub.

As for their datability, I get the impression many of them take pride in their complete geekitude.

Nothing wrong with that, mind you. I'm fairly nerdy myself.

Yes, a bar hangout is a very good comparison. Just guys hanging out with their buddies. [but I'm not following the reference to being nerdy?]

My point is that the motivation to make a good impression on females doesn't exist in many blog comment sections. I'm speculating that some men don't care because they aren't factoring in any possiblity they might wish to date the women that read their comments. My question is do these individuals need that sort of motivation to restrain themselves?

From the womens' point of view, part of the conflict appears to result from women confusing male reactions offline with online behavior.

Women need to remember how men interpret their reactions offline. For instance, how we act offline if someone offends us?

We avoid the guy like the plague. Particulary if his attentions are unwanted.

In the non-online world, would we follow an offensive creep around, in order to lecture them to change their behavior? He would interpret our behavior to mean we wanted his attention.

Part of female frustration is that we want to be part of the interesting online discussions and accepted as "part of the gang". Yet, to guys, "being part of the gang" means allowing them to let loose their social restraints.

But to many females, the locker room talk is interpreted as "we don't want you here". That may be true. So are we going to nag them into accepting us?

No. I'm not going to nag anyone into doing anything. The irony here is that I blew my stack over something that I found offensive, but that few other women do.

And if Ragnar and Ace hadn't both produced smarmy posts about women being "too fit" (or, as they would likely have it, distorting the female form) on the same day, I wouldn't have lost my temper.

But they did, and I did.

In retrospect, I wish I hadn't. But I did.

Nice summary, Joy.

I am kind of a submissive female, trying to understand men and their ogre-like behavior, but understanding it and expecting better are two different things. I expect much better of men. And women who continue to tolerate this kind of demeaning behavior do a huge disservice to sophisticated and intelligent ladies everywhere.

Oh and I failed to learn somewhere along the way that "trashy" = "demure." I must have mistakenly thought it meant modest and playful. /snark