Maybe illegals don't stop on the border and spit as they cross but their attitude is no less than, "Oh, THOSE laws. Who cares? My desire to work, to get free medical care, to get cheap tuition and an education, to join a gang, or work in the drug distribution profession is the only thing that counts. The people of the world have a right to enter and live in any Western country they if they can get there and cross the border. What people of the host country think is of no moment."

They may be and frequently are personally nice people but the above is the essence of their attitudes. They know our laws exist and yet they come anyway. What? 25,000,000 have come across the border? And not one ever turned back out of respect for our laws.

I'd say that's contempt.

That might be the case if so many Americans weren't willing to hire them.

As it stands, the state has put itself in the awkward position of standing between a willing seller and a willing buyer.

This is analogous to the "Drug War": in order to get somewhere, we'd have to be honest. In this particular instance, we'd have to be honest about how dependent areas like Southern California are on the labor of illegal immigrants.

But we are not supposed to say that out loud.

Right now, you have a person who needs a service, and a group of people who are willing to provide that service. There is a second group of people who could help to meet that demand--the INS--by enforcing the borders and letting non-Latino immigrants into this country in a timely fashion (that is, quickly processing requests from people who don't enjoy the same geographic proximity). That would keep those who come North to get here less of an advantage simply on the basis of geography.

But in order to facilitate that, a government bureaucracy would have to get off its ass and do its job.

Fat chance.

Right. But the excuse 'everybody's doin' it!' does not make it right, or legal.

Take software and 'entertainment' piracy, for instance. EVERYBODY in Asia does it to some degree or another. Does it make it right or legal, though? (It's legal to possess but not distribute pirated stuff in Malaysia. So a bit of shooting my own foot here.)

Lots of people screwing each other and living together without benefit of marriage. Society seemingly accepting it. Is it right? (probably legal, depending on where you are)

Conservatism, it seems to me, is concerned with the ideals and principles it purports to stand for, and will handle exceptions case by case.

Hard cases make for bad law, or something like that.

Yes. But--as with Prohibition--you make something illegal that absolutely everybody does, you've simply set up a system in which 70-90% of the population is "guilty," and law enforcement thereby can engage in "selective enforcement"--go after anyone it pleases.

And in CA I think we pretty much approach 90% in our participation in the cheap labor available here. The staunchest conservatives I know still pick up day-laborers outside of Home Depot for special projects, or use contractors whose "taxpayer IDs" may or may not be valid. (For some businesses, the threshold is "does this look good enough for me to get plausible deniability?")

And, yes: you did negate your argument a little, there. If behavior that is considered theft of intellectual property here is widespread and acceptable in Malaysia, to make it completely illegal there may not be realistic. Better to decriminalize the common user of the prohibited product, and go after the wholesale distributors.

But international copyright law is more complex than drug legalization, because there is theft involved--it isn't a truly victimless crime, as drug use is here.

The fact is, I don't smoke a lot of weed. But I'd feel weird living in a place where it was not just decriminalized, but outright illegal illegal--and enforced.

By the way: if I'm at a party, and a pipe is being passed around, am I showing contempt for the law if I take a hit?

What if my friends weren't such light users, and I suspected that my host had more than the misdemeanor amount in his home? (I think it's an ounce.) What if I suspected that he sometimes . . . gasp! . . . sold the evil herb to people who wanted it for other than medicinal purposes?

Let's not get into IP law and stuff - I feel really strongly about it... ;)

But I dunno. Stuff that the FDA regulates (but is legal, OTC and all that) in the USA is pretty much free for all in Malaysia. I've never seriously maxed out Panadol (acetaminophen... Tylenol, maybe? Not sure) purchases before, but you could buy a few hundred of 'em at a time. It's not OTC, either - it's out on the shelves. Neurofen? Same thing.

Of course, stuff that is illegal is REALLY illegal, and punishable by death.

I would say about illegal immigration that if you went after the demand, (employers, and FULL enforcement), the supply will melt away. But you'd have to get some ecomonists to chart it for you.